Published: Thursday, 28th January, 2010 7:10am
VOTE: Councillor calls for 16-year-olds to be served in West Fife's pubs
by Ally McRoberts
Comments (17) | 
Print | 
Email
A DUNFERMLINE councillor wants to curb Scotland's alcohol problem - by allowing MORE young people to drink legally.
David Mogg, who represents Dunfermline North for the SNP, wants to tackle alcohol abuse by encouraging 16-year-olds to drink beers, wines and spirits in pubs.
He argues that lowering the age that youngsters can drink alcohol in pubs from 18 to 16, while raising the age for off-sales to 21, would take problem drinking off the streets.
He tabled a motion at Fife's licensing board on Monday asking MSPs to "put aside petty party politics" and support the Scottish Government's crackdown on alcohol.
One of the key proposals in the Alcohol Etc (Scotland) Bill that was introduced to the Scottish Parliament in November was to "place a duty on licensing boards to consider raising the purchase age of alcohol to 21 in all or part of their area".
In his motion, Councillor Mogg said, "This part of the Bill has been criticised on the grounds that students and soldiers returning from operations in war zones will be unable to buy alcohol.
"This is not true since they can still make use of pubs.
"Personally, and this is not in the Bill, I would go further and allow persons over 16 to be served in pubs.
"This would remove most of the underage drinkers from the streets and allow them to socialise in a controlled, well managed and safer environment."
He asked the board to support the other key proposals in the Bill, which were to: reduce alcohol consumption and harm; stop high-strength alcohol being sold at "pocket money" prices; introduce further bans on irresponsible promotions and restrict marketing activity in off-sales locations; make smaller measures of wine available at on-sales locations and introduce a Social Responsibility Fee for some retailers to offset the costs of dealing with problems caused by drink.
Councillor Mogg said the best way to tackle alcohol misuse was the introduction of minimum price legislation - the Government has advocated a minimum price of 40p per unit - and a ban on cheap drink promotions.
He said, "The ordinary moderate drinker would see hardly any difference (an extra 21p per week compared to £2.63 a week for 'harmful' drinkers).
"However, the biggest effect would be on those who buy the powerful, high-strength products which currently are cheaper than water, sometimes as low as 20p per unit.
"A minimum price per unit of alcohol will raise the cost of the cheapest ciders, lagers and low-grade spirits favoured by problem drinkers."
Councillor Mogg said more people now drink at home because alcohol was so cheap to buy from shops and supermarkets.
"Rather than enjoy an evening out in a controlled location served by trained staff we now consume large amounts of cheap booze in an uncontrolled way without any responsible advice from people who can advise, 'I think you've had enough sir'," he said.
"This results in alcohol being much more available to underage drinkers and there is evidence that children found with alcohol on the street obtained it from the family stocks at home."
Councillor Mogg's motion was seconded by Councillor Bill Sangster and was passed by the licensing board by five votes with five abstentions.
Should West Fife's pubs be open to 16-year-olds? Vote now in our oneline poll.
Del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Reddit
Stumbleupon
Paul McGowan
(Unregistered User)
Jan 28 10 12:19
Our Ref: 8217
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Is David Mogg on Drugs??
16 year olds are already in the pub!
Report this comment
RonE
(Unregistered User)
Jan 28 10 12:45
Our Ref: 8219
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
What a crazy idea! The 16yr olds who already go to pubs would just be joined by their 14 and 15 year old pals.
My water comes out a tap. where can I get Cider cheaper than this??
Report this comment
Chelsea Cousins
(Unregistered User)
Jan 28 10 15:32
Our Ref: 8225
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Lower the age Im 18 nearly 19 and I still cant get in as pubs and clubs refuse me ID . I have a citiznescard with my pictuer dat eof birht and the holgraphic pas slogo on it Yet no where acpets it . I have been out and yes I seen 16yrs somethime younger beign served and yet im legal age and get refused . Maybe you could help me with my ID issue .I find this unbeliveable
Report this comment
Sharon Maynaed
(Unregistered User)
Jan 28 10 22:37
Our Ref: 8237
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
As David is a councillor, then he REALLY needs to be booted out of his job!!
How irresponsible can this guy get? It's bad enough for the rest of us adults to go out at night with the amount of abuse that we receive, and this is from 18 years old who can't handle their drink, so what is it going to be like with 16 year olds! How about raising the age to 21, raise the ridiculously low fine that is paid out to a level that will make these idiots take notice and perhaps these binge drinkers will make night life for the rest of us a bit more enjoyable and safer. The police have got enough work to do without this David adding to it.
Just goes to show how people in authority don't think before they speak.
Report this comment
Welisera
(Unregistered User)
Jan 29 10 13:51
Our Ref: 8256
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Authority? He's certainly not an authority on anything he touches.
There are 10 councillors on the licensing board and there were 5 abstentions. We know that Bill Sangster
seconded David 'who am I' Mogg's, let's clear the pubs of all decent responsible drinkers, as soon as possible, and let the 16 year olds take over. Let's face it, their benefits should stretch that, and when they become alcoholics, they will get extras and then take up beds in hospitals.
Well done cllr Mogg, let's hope, you are only out for a weekend break.
Who were the other 3 who voted for this crackpots recent stupidity. We know of two, he's one, the remaining 8 are cllrs L Brown, J Burke, B Campbell, B Eadie, GM Leslie, DN Lothian, A Rodger and D Torrance.
Report this comment
NEILY-J
(Unregistered User)
Jan 29 10 14:34
Our Ref: 8262
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Chealsea, wot u need to do is apply for a provisional drivers licence, even if you dont want to drive or buy a car. All clubs now only accept driving licence or passport. Not a good idea taking ur passport on a night out though. I used to go to the watering hole when i was 15 and you dont get in Johnsons if you are over 18
Report this comment
Julie C
(Unregistered User)
Jan 29 10 15:43
Our Ref: 8264
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Fab
Not only do we have to suffer drunk teenage neds on the street but if he gets his way theyll be in the pubs as well.
What a great idea.
Report this comment
Ben Dover
(Unregistered User)
Jan 30 10 18:41
Our Ref: 8291
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
There's a village missing an idiot somewhere....
This story really illustrates just how out of touch these clowns that call themselves councillors really are.
The pubs are bad enough with the '18' year olds they let in as it is. No wonder there are so many of them closing down.
Report this comment
Cllr david Mogg
(Unregistered User)
Jan 31 10 00:49
Our Ref: 8293
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
My, My , I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
I wish people would read the article and not just the headline. Then we might be able to have a debate instead of a slanging match.
Here is my argument:
1. Off sales should be restricted to persons over 21. I support this is because a lot of underage drinking is supported by so called " Agent purchasing" where persons of legal age buy alcohol for under-age friends or siblings. Therefore raising the age for off sales will mean that fewer such purchase would be made. This tactic has been trialled in several places and has been successful in reducing the problem of under-age youths drinking on the street.
2. Most "street drinkers" are around 16/17 years old although some are considerably younger. The very young street drinkers usually share the alcohol bought by the 16/17 year olds. My suggestion is that we allow 16 year old people to be served in Pubs which would.
(a) get them off the streets and allow them to soc*alise in a safe controlled and supervised way.
(b) It would also go a long way to cutting off the supply to the very young.
Report this comment
BILL ROBB
(Unregistered User)
Jan 31 10 12:15
Our Ref: 8307
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Councillor Mogg, Yet again, your arrogance and slip is showing at your total lack of the reality of this and many other situations.
Those in the real world, do not have to sit around a table, warming up chairs, and push silly ideas around hoping that most will weary and do the usual 'nodding' through tactic. If you need convincing of your crackpot ideas, give yourself a good talking to in a mirror.
Perhaps it has escaped your powers of observation and referral to your book of No Knowledge, that Dunfermline has suffered from a shocking reputation from those WELL ABOVE the age of 16 years. Now, you recommend, that they join those who create intolerable situations and learn how to SOc*alisE in a proper manner. Perhaps you should invite them to your 'watering hole', and you can teach them 'first hand' on how responsible drinking should take place?
The admission here folks is, if the law of the land is unenforceable, change the goals posts in the hope something may happen to allow brownie points to be earned. Of course, the next stage would be, to further reduce the age, too far?
Now, cllr Mogg is proposing a real dilemma. You can't buy from an off licence until you are 21, but you can visit pubs at 16, a FIVE years age difference, and get blitzed in a really responsible way. Where is the line drawn? There can be no line given there seems to be a split legality.
Let me, and what all right thinking people will explain to you councillor. The sixteen year olds, as do all other age groups, will fill themselves full of booze, then visit the pubs. You have now introduced a way of how they can get even more bravado, by mixing with the big boys. Doing so, will create many more problems. Why? Because sensible drinking does not just happen by lowering the age by which youngsters can legally drink in pubs. No, sometimes it does not happen for those of any age. However, responsibility should grow with age and experience.
In the Royal Navy, when the tot of rum was on the go, only ratings of 21 years and above could be issued with it, but the legal age, as is now, to be able to drink was 18 years. Ask yourself why that should have been the case councillor? Let me remind you, in case you ever knew, that the first management structure, as still used today, was introduced by Lord Horatio Nelson - he was reasonably bright.
Your philosophy for solving problems by moving goal posts is well flawed. You see councillor, you need to have experienced the world that most live in, to even get to the starting gate. Solving problems by those who do not even understand them, is all too common, and unfortunately, you also believe, that humps and bumps regulate the speed of traffic. No they do not. You are a real winner?
Report this comment
Quo Vadis
(Unregistered User)
Feb 1 10 14:56
Our Ref: 8325
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Do you recal the same unthinking knee jerk response when it was first mooted we should have legislation to curb smoking in public places. Why don\'t people have a wee think when interesting fresh proposals are floated? The object of the excersise is to stop our youngsters binge drinking and causing long term damage to their bodies. If critics can\'t bring themselves to be altruistic then perhaps they should look at the costs to taxpayers (themselves) and the NHS of caring for the long term damage in heart, cancer and other health problems. When a young girl gets ****ed and maybe gets pregnant, continues to go on the **** without realising it the fetus is damaged and the resulting human ends up with FAS and will delelop anti social behaviour and poor learning ability meaning we will need to support that human thro\'out their life. \r\nCllr Moggs contention that 16 year olds would not bing drink in pubs is sound and if all the critics on this forum were to act as decent role models in their local pubs we might break the booze cycle which is ruining our culture.\r\n I welcome Cllr Moggs blue skies thinking.
Report this comment
Welisera
(Unregistered User)
Feb 1 10 22:25
Our Ref: 8337
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Perhaps it has escaped some, that the culture of binge drinking, at all ages, is with us now and the preachers are all over that right now.
Guess where the binge drinking is taking place Quo? That's it - in the pubs which you and cllr Mogg wish to introduce youngsters. Come into my den, said the.....Cobweb thinking is no thinking at all.
Perhaps, it would be more advantageous for youngsters, if they were provided with other activities to get involved with rather than coach them how to drink responsibly at earlier ages.
You see, addressing problems, by going with the flow, so to speak, does not resolve anything.
Let's introduce our youngsters to gambling and how to do it responsibly. Perhaps addiction has passed some by?
Perhaps somebody could write a handbook on how not to binge drink in pubs or elsewhere.
"Doctor, if I stop drinking, smoking and going with women, will I live longer."
"Jimmy, we will never know that until somebody tries it."
Blue skies are for the birds, and they deserve not to be polluted.
Report this comment
voice of reason
(Unregistered User)
Feb 3 10 18:49
Our Ref: 8383
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
this is a good idea which may have a good effect. i dont know who the people commenting on here are, maybe 40 somethin year olds with a hatred of youngsters. im 23 and remember drinking on the streets from the age of 14. ALL teenagers drink EVERY weekend nothing is going to change that and theyre not all neds trying to find trouble. They just have nowhere to go. the biggest problem locals had was teenagers drinkin near their houses making alot of noise and feeling intimidated to leave their house. When i was 16 me and my mates would of went to the pubs if it was legal, less hassle from the police & the locals who didnt want us there. This proposal of 16 in pubs & 21 to buy in shops would get a lot of kids off the street and let people feel safer in their own neighbourhoods. As for 16 year olds gettin blootered in the pub, how are they going to afford to do that on a paper round wages while theyre still at school? in the pub they can buy a pint of lager for £3 or £5 for buckie from a shop. Think about it people before you slate this councillor
Report this comment
voice of reason
(Unregistered User)
Feb 3 10 19:08
Our Ref: 8384
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
Thought i would mention that im dead against the proposal of minimum prices per unit. This punishes everyone. Would this extra cost be a tax? If so it just sounds like another way to squeeze more money out of the public. NOTHING WILL STOP BINGE DRINKING. REASON - PEOPLE LIKE DOING IT!! Maybe if scotland wasnt so sh*t people might have other interests
Report this comment
fithteen year old
(Unregistered User)
Feb 10 10 18:03
Our Ref: 8577
Use the ref number if you need to report this comment
I think this is a brilliant idea and most of the comments here are made up of middle-aged, grumpy old people who are intolerant of youngsters, im 15 turning 16 and im from northern ireland and wish this would be put in place, i drink most weekends and me and my freinds have to find somewhere to do it as basically there is no-where else to go, some of the comments calling the councillor an idot etc are generally middle-aged people who probably didn\\\\\\\'t see a drink of alcohol until they where in their 20\\\\\\\'s if you havn\\\\\\\'t noticed time have changed and that you shouldn\\\\\\\'t make judgments based on the facts that you don\\\\\\\'t know what its like to be our age so don\\\\\\\'t try to comment saying you know whats right i back the councillor 100% and would like to see the outcome of it all.
Report this comment
For your convenience, you can now register with our website (which will save you from having to retype your name each time you post a comment). If you would like to do this (or have already!) then please Log in or Register